So, I'm not sure if I understand everything your saying. We will die(and we is every human ever created/born/died/raptured) and in the face of God who IS love, suffer hell in our hearts because we realize what we could have shared with others and didn't, and this is all while we are in heaven? Or at the Judgement seat? I have read this 4 times and am still confused by your statements. There is no hell, a place of eternal suffering, weeping and gnashing of teeth? Everyone will be in Heaven with God? Really all I can say is this blog confuses the Hell out of me, and I could use some elaboration, you seem to dance around any solid ground here....

Jesus sacrificed Himself so that we may have everlasting life (John 3:16). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)... not everlasting life in Hell.

I have been saying this for decades! Really. You put such a clear, concise point on it; making it accessible to all. No Hell as preached by so many for so long. No loving being would cast aside ANYONE in such a tragic, terrifying, and "ever lasting" manner. We all experience "Hell" when we are not living in relation to God and doing those good things that Jesus came to remind us of. WE make our own lives, and the lives of those we touch Hell when we make bad choices and choose not to find our pathway of Love. I like your idea of the cognitive dissonance we experience at the moment of death. Being fully and completely in God's presence for the first time is going to be, and I quote Will Ferrell, "A bitch slap of reality"; the awareness of all that could have been had you done what you knew in your heart was right during your time on Earth. The physical (?), psychological, and spiritual impact of this may well be the worst thing we EVER experience. The execrable feeling of knowing what might have been.

Thank you.

I'm not Catholic but you just gave a pretty good description of Purgatory. Do we get indulgences for good behavior?

Actually hell is mentioned 14 times. So you are wrong 14 times over for that part. Heaven consequently, is mentioned 622 times. They are separate places and one cannot bridge the divide.

I understand what you mean. That Hell will be knowing how much we screwed up on earth how far we truly were from God. That hell is learning how to deal with the fact that we screwed up. Once we finally come to terms with how far off the mark we were only then will we be able to join with God. Life is hell now as we judge and hate those we see as not being good enough to deserve our unconditional love. For heaven on earth and in the afterlife we must truly accept all and share with all.

Mark, thanks for this. A few thoughts.

1. People who have witnessed the damage done by this theology have taken the corrective action of, sigh, smilinghile they say it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-shore/how-francis-chan-and-his-_b_865681.html

2. The sad fact is that people believe in "Hell" so much that they are perfectly willing to play the "necessary" parts:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/213/devil-on-my-shoulder

...but it is not just confined to Church or even a disembodied notion of Hell. It roams the world seeking whom it can devour. This is a worldview that needs Hell. Saving disembodied souls from a disembodied Hell is just the vehicle by which the real Hell is delivered to our real selves.

And Hell is heavily incentive-ized:

-Powers get to endorse an inert Gospel, or weaponize it at a whim. The real hells are something for the Powers to save us from.
-Factory churches get to prove their worldview and increase their soul berry harvest (not relevant at all: Matthew 23:15).
-We can gain power over others, instead of empowering others with the truth of their self worth. "You are lacking and going to hell. Here, try my idea of Christ".

Fortunately, God is not an idea. God is a person.

Rather silly to speculate and postulate and anthropomorphize a God that we can't even conceive of reliably. It becomes a fantasy that gives some of us comfort and others an instrument of hate or superiority. Many folks make this life here on earth a kind of hell for themselves and others. I have lived long enough to note that many of those people get their punishments here on earth.

How about "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"? (Romans 8:1) If you feel that you are "going to hell" then perhaps you are not in Christ Jesus. Also, are there any Scriptures that back up what you're saying?

I think your picking up on C S Lewis's "The Great Divorce", whose story of those struggling to cope with the reality of heaven and the process of becoming necessary to travel in it, seems to be what your getting at. Lewis however suggests that Hell is more like a grey and dreary City, in which we become less real, because God will not force us to become, though if we deny the God image in us, eventually what reality do we have? In C S Lewis book he acknowledges that he is thinking out loud, he certainly does not claim to be giving us the biblical picture of the afterlife, which is good because I am unconvinced that there is a single picture of the afterlife which we can say is the biblical picture, there are sketches, but there again Jesus did not preach or teach about how to avoid hell, but rather how to enter the Kingdom.

So even tho Laz goes up to God and the rich man is tormented in some place we don't call hell, the rich man in time, gets to heaven? Preachs well in America and I might as well neglect the poor and starving and enjoy life because I'll get to heaven anyway. The rich farmer who tears down his barns and builds bigger ones, WAY TO GO!!! because you will get to heaven eventually, this is but an oops in the road. Sorry, but I cannot buy this approach to Biblical interpretation. I don't like the idea of hell so I'll adjust the Bible to suit my discomfort. You are teaching me that the Bible is lying about life after death. When you proof text the Bible, you ultimately have nothing except man-made feel-good theology.

I appreciate your thoughts. I think it's important to have respectful dialogue on these issues. And I preface my comments by saying that I am well aware that these things have been argued and written about by far greater thinkers than I and there are still many mysteries.

My first point to make is your idea of separation from God. I believe Jesus Christ embraced all of humanity in Himself and there is simply no separation from God. Even if we speak of a literal 'hell' there can be no separation from God even there, otherwise is hell greater than God Himself? The whole universe is held together in Him....there is not a place where He is not, even in our own hearts, and even if we reject Him.

And in terms of self-judgement. That's a little silly....Jesus did not come to judge the world. There seems little point in judging yourself. And if you feel you will or must, then I propose that your gospel is too small. Jesus Christ has fully redeemed mankind. It is finished. There is nothing more to add. I think when it's all over and we see God and know Him fully, there will only be wonder and awe at His goodness. No regrets...that is the beauty of Christ's redemption. It's complete and perfect.

To Debbie - I've been given to understand that Jesus didn't die to release us from a debt, but that Jesus died to prove to us that NO MATTER WHAT love wins. No matter how horribly God was treated in the form of Jesus, He comes back even from THAT death with the message that LOVE is triumphant. God's love for humanity is triumphant; it is what wins. It is what rules. But speaking to other points made, I have to say that it has been my experience that hell and heaven -- quite regardless of what happens after death -- are very much experiences we can have in while alive. Living in rejection or denial of our connectedness is a very fearful, very sad, very angry, very destructive existence, which to come back from is very painful, deeply remorseful, humbling, HELLish experience. And to live into our connectedness regardless of any external indication of "other"-ness, to own and experience our place with ALL people (and all of God's creation, for that matter) as truly being among FAMILY, IS heaven.

I was just wondering about Revelation 21:8, "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Could you address this verse and similar passages? Thanks!

Actually "hel" or "hell" comes from the Germanic word "helaheim" which is the name of the underworld in the Germanic polytheistic tradition. It is not a place of fire or burning at all, but of something more like an autumn twilight, of rest. Hel is als the name of the daugther of Loki, and she is the ruler of Helaheim. Look it up.

Your idea resonates with my own understanding of Hell. God has given us free will, and that includes the decision to reject her even after we meet him. Thus there needs to be a place where he is not, so her presence isn't forced upon those people. That place is what we call Hell. Since love will be absent it will be a miserable place. Not of punishment, but of consequence. I like C.S. Lewis's idea that some people might graduate from Hell.

Reminds me of the death of Heracles. Burning in a giant funeral pyre of his own making till all that was left of himself was the part of him that was always a god. Also I think 2 Peter 2:4 uses Tartarus. In the Parable of the wedding feast and the Parable of the talents there is a disturbing phrase "cast into outer darkness" that I think fits what you are saying nicely. It isn't Hell it is a place of internal not eternal suffering "sweeping and gnashing of teeth" of someone not measuring up to a set standard. It is likely to be beyond our ability to work out this internal suffering which is why there is a promise in Rev 21:4 that God Himself will resolve the conflict.

What about people who have no shame? What about people who are sure they are right? How could they be in hell?

Loved the article...and loved the comments even more :) It's so great to get everyone thinking and talking! I think the thing many people struggle with is the "Why did Jesus die then?" question, because the substitutionary atonement view is so prevalent in the West. To me, heaven is to be with God - it's not a place as we understand it. His kingdom will be established HERE, after all. Of course there is nowhere that God is not, so perhaps Christian Universalism scores some points on that basis. You did mention that the Bible does not discuss Limbo, or Purgatory - actually, it does...or at least, there is a passage of Scripture that the concept of Purgatory is based upon. It's 1 Cor 3:10-15: "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is TO BE revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

I have really enjoyed this discussion; thanks for prompting it :)

Loved this post. My personal feeling has always been that life without God is hell enough without adding anything else, and that God could never leave a child of God behind forever. Humans have trouble with that, and God's love far surpasses ours. Thanks for this - you are my website's new "Link of the Week"!

Beautifully stated, Mark. Raised a Southern Baptist, I had quite a vivid idea of Hell and the eternal torture awaiting all who did not have a conversion experience like mine. This vision, however, at some level never rang true. I had a great deal of conflict about "witnessing;" and I realized finally it was because I couldn't really rationalize how a loving Creator could create such a system. One 'ah, ha" moment for me came when I picked up a book about "No-Hellers." Having lived in Appalachia for nine years, I am fascinated by the culture. This book was about a fundamentalist, holiness, pentacostal, etc. sect that somehow came to the same conclusion: Hell was inconsistent with God's love. I still remember reading the response of one preacher when asked about the criticism he had received from his hell-believing friends: "Some of the brethren just enjoy the notion of Hell a little too much." I suddenly remembered all the times I had seen folks (including, sadly, myself) smugly talk about Hell as if we enjoyed the thought of people being tortured eternally. I'm thinking that one reason the conventional picture of Hell is so popular is because of our need to be part of the "in" group. WE'RE not going there and those that ARE deserve to. Oh, sure, if a passionate evangelist gets us stirred up, we may become concerned about others' eternal destinies and try to make converts, but it seems that most of the time it's about making sure we're going to Heaven. Those that aren't have only themselves to blame. Although we talk about grace and faith, we still somehow like to believe that we're saved because we DID the right thing. We can look down our noses at all those sinners who will one day see how right we were....anyway, your current thoughts parallel mine almost exactly. Thanks for putting it so succinctly....

Well written. Basically what I've long thought in regards to the whole issue, and very similar to the depiction of "hell" in the Robbin Williams movie "What Dreams May Come". It's been a while since I watched it, but one of the major points is that the wife, who committed suicide, has not been condemned to hell by God, but rather she is so absorbed in her own suffering and pain that she can't allow herself to be released to heaven. (Movie study anyone?)

I've always had difficulty believing that God's house has a torture chamber in the basement.

Hornets nest! Perhaps I could offer some clarification?

Reposting this link on FB is bound to give this article new legs, BTW.

(1) The Jews do not believe in hell, so referencing the Old Testament as "proof" of hell is a non-starter. When Jesus speaks of "hell," he often speaks of a party that the unworthy aren't invited to -- i.e. left outside in the dark while the party rages on inside. That's not hellfire and damnation. He's talking about being invited into the master's house. That sounds very much like what the author is saying. How would it feel to see the light of God but to be excluded from it? When he makes references to fire & burning, he's referring to the garbage dump that, incidentally, was ALWAYS burning. It's a reference to being discarded, not tortured.

(2) The references to the "everlasting fire" simply mean the fire never goes out. It doesn't mean we burn for eternity. In Revelation, being tossed in is referred to as "the second death," which sounds like your existence simply comes to an end.

(3) We're created in God's image, meaning we have the same feelings, desires and motivations, including parental love for our children. Is there anything -- ANYTHING -- your child could possibly do to motivate you to torture him for even a short time? No? Then, in the paraphrased words of Jesus, if you being evil couldn't do that your kids, how could you possibly think that God could do that to his kids?

Ok, granted, I'm just a regular person, never having even taken any courses in theology. The Bible does say the goats will be thrown into the lake of fire, it also says the wages of sin are death. So here is how I believe. The path to ETERNAL life is narrow, many of us will not make it. When we die, we will be dead...cease to exist, be as asleep, know nothing. Those who actively follow Satan, who do evil on purpose, the goats, will be thrown in the lake of fire for eternity.

So while I hear what you are saying I have met a lot of people who have had near death experiences and the common theme is that while there is a account of your life ...and a playback of your life...there is no torment. Just love and inner peace and the mercy of God...because most of us fail bc we are human or because we were abused as children or whatever. On and on and on...and so at death the "judging mind" is no longer alive...we are pure spirit and so there is no need any longer for us to judge ourselves or others...Rather we understand why we did what we did and what others did to us and we realize this in the mercy and love of God. It has been described as a knowing or enlightenment...this dying process. So while none of us really know what it's like on the other side....I highly doubt that there is suffering. I heard nothing but beautiful good things. Stories of people at peace, wrapped in love and understanding.

I really enjoyed the article, and I do agree with you. I have a question about the verses that seem to reference Hell and was hoping you could clear something up for me.


The children of the kingdom will be driven out into the darkness where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth (Mt 8:12)

These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power (2 Thes 1:9)


In these two verses, what exactly do they refer to if Jesus was not preaching of Hell in a physical sense?